Ahead of the Curve: Gina McCarthy

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0:00:46.8 Host: Welcome to Population Healthy, a podcast from the University of Michigan School of Public Health. In today's episode we're featuring a conversation from our Ahead of the Curve leadership speaker series between Dean DuBois Bowman and Gina McCarthy. She's the first ever White House Climate advisor, a former environmental protection Agency administrator and an esteemed professor and environmental thought leader. McCarthy has had a distinguished career in public health and environmental advocacy, serving in both state and federal levels under multiple administrations. She's spearheaded critical climate initiatives and policies fostering bipartisan support and driving forward the most aggressive climate actions in US history. Join us as we delve into McCarthy's journey into public health, her experiences working across political divides, the importance of environmental justice and her insightful perspectives on the future of climate action. McCarthy also shares invaluable advice for the next generation of public health leaders. And now here's Dean DuBois Bowman.

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0:02:00.8 DuBois Bowman: Thank you for joining us for Ahead of the Curve, a speaker series from the University of Michigan School of Public Health, my name is DuBois Bowman, and I serve as Dean of the School of Public Health. Ahead of the Curve speaker series focuses on conversations about leadership, and throughout this series we have discussions with contemporary leaders to hear about their insights, their vision, and their stories of perseverance. Leadership is a critical component of navigating complex health challenges and building a better future through improved health and equity. We want to hear about the important factors that shape great leaders and we want to learn how they continue to evolve and grow so that in turn, we can help to train the next generation of leaders. We have a fantastic guest with us today to explore these issues. I'm delighted to welcome Gina McCarthy, the first ever White House Climate advisor, former EPA administrator, professor, and environmental and public health thought leader.

0:03:00.4 DB: Gina has had a long career in public health and environmental advocacy, having worked at state and federal government levels for many years. From 2013 to 2017, Gina was the administrator of the United States environmental Protection Agency under President Barack Obama, and then after leaving the EPA, Gina served as a professor of practice in the Department of Environmental Health at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, as well as President and CEO of the Natural Resources Defense Council. From 2021 to 2022, she served as the first ever White House climate advisor under President Biden, and in this role her leadership led to the most aggressive action on climate in US history, creating new jobs and unprecedented clean energy innovation and investments across the country. Since leaving the Biden administration, Gina is completing a climate fellowship for her Alma Mater Tufts University. She's also an advisor for private equity firms on climate- and sustainability-focused investments, and she's co-chairing a group coordinating climate policies between the United States and India. She most recently joined the climate Initiative America is All in as managing co-chair. Gina, thank you so much for joining us today, I'm really delighted to get into the conversation.

0:04:27.1 Gina McCarthy: Hey, thank you. It's great to be here, and I apologize for the long introduction but I'm old, I mean this is what you get.

[laughter]

0:04:36.1 DB: I want to start really toward the beginning and talking about how you first got interested in public health and environmental work. And as you reflect back, can you think of early life experiences or even educational or career experiences that prompted your interests in the field? 

0:04:57.0 GM: Probably a lot, sure. Let me just start by saying that, I have always had difficulty because I never knew what I wanted to be when I grew up. [laughter] And that started from day one, I just wanted to learn stuff. I just wanted to be active and engaged, on issues that I cared about. And honestly, when I was a kid I grew up in the '50s, '60s, '70s and we're talking about a public health challenge, when you saw the air pollution challenges spewing smoke out of old coal units. And we had a textile factory near us where the river would run red or green every day, depending upon what crappy dyes they were putting into their products. So I'm used to fighting and being engaged on issues both locally, but then at the state and federal level.

0:05:57.7 GM: And it just came naturally to me to recognize that all of these pollution challenges, and more recently of course, over the past 20 years, focused on the climate challenges, you realize how interrelated health is on these issues. And so I've had a great opportunity to work at the local level, I really got my feet wet there, my undergraduate degree was in anthropology, that may seem like it's disconnected from public health but it isn't, it gives you great sense of human nature, how people actually work as communities, how do you really find a way to intervene in a way that's going to be helpful and provide more safety and security. And I went to work in a really small town as my first real job and I was the public health agent for the town.

0:06:57.9 GM: Now of course I took that job knowing nothing. I had no idea what they wanted me to do, and it turned out I needed to learn about septic systems, sewer systems, wells, and public drinking water, you name it, you get thrown at you for dumping in the woods pollution, we had all kinds of challenges. And it was a great experience for me, but the connecting thing was health, the connecting thing was public health, and it kept me going because you get to have fun with people and serve them at the same time, to me public service is it, that's all I ever wanted to do. And I like making money now, that's not bad, but it's not as much fun.

0:07:48.1 DB: So, if we can kind of drill down on that, I appreciate hearing just some of what you were observing in your own environment and thinking about exposures and the impact on health. But if we talk specifically about the topic of climate change, you've described climate change as an intersectional issue for example framing it as a human rights issue, a youth issue, a racial justice issue and then, importantly one of the key intersections that you include regards climate change as a health issue, so if we're talking about climate change specifically, why is it important to regard climate health in part as a health issue? 

0:08:28.9 GM: I don't want to give too complicated or long an answer, but it seems self-evident to me that health is so critically important, and that when we all became aware of the challenge of climate change, it became very apparent to me that it was a driving factor in health. When I first went to the federal government, I had been working in the state of Massachusetts for a while then I ran the agency in Connecticut, the environmental agency. And then I got a call asking if I wanted to join the Obama administration, and I told them of course, but only if you give me the air program. [laughter] And they said, okay. And they kept trying to take it away from me because everybody wanted it, and I said, "Nope, I'm going to keep my butt in Connecticut, or I get the air program."

0:09:25.2 GM: Because air quality is such a fundamental challenge from a health perspective and so much contributes to air pollution, including the challenge of climate change, it's intersectional with everything that we get to do and think about, and it remains a passion for me. I've helped to set up a new international group that's looking at clean air, I'm working with Bloomberg on Breathe Cities because it's so fundamental, and we forget how many billions of people every year are dying as a result of exposure to dirty air, we just have to get at it. And one of the reasons why I took that job, I will be very honest with you, that at the time that President Biden won the election, I was very happily getting paid money at Natural Resources Defense Council to run that nonprofit, and it's a superb organization in New York.

0:10:24.9 GM: Only that's when Covid hit, and I ended up getting a call from President Biden. And the reason he asked me to become White House advisor was because we knew each other when he was vice president, the reason why I took that position was number one, he described his position and this position that he wanted me to take in this way. He said that this is about Covid hitting and people having no sense of hope or opportunity, we need to deal with climate change because it's a contributing factor in so many of the challenges that he knew were already here and happening. And he basically said, "We're not going to talk about climate change as a sacrifice, we're going to talk about it as an opportunity, we're going to talk about it as an opportunity to lower our energy costs, as an opportunity to lower air pollution, as an opportunity to protect our water quality." And he just kept going on and on, and I'm like, I jumped at it because he realized that climate and health are absolutely intertwined as health is in many things. But to me it's always been about air and water pollution, and it's always been about climate, that's what I do.

0:11:51.3 DB: Thinking about those issues, and then as I think about the field of public health, something that's so central is the understanding that different communities can have very different health trajectories based on specific circumstances and experiences impacting those living in the community, so as you mentioned air and water as examples. And this notion is certainly true as it comes to a topic like climate change specifically as well, and so I was just wondering if there were experiences professionally for you or otherwise that opened your eyes to disproportionate impacts and the need to address these issues through a lens of environmental justice.

0:12:31.0 GM: There are so many, and honestly, I think that I stuck my nose to the grindstone pretty well when I was working in the states and pretty well when I went to EPA. And it was when I was EPA administrator that I had the flexibility to really expand my focus and my travel so I could literally see what was going on across the country, because you can't be a public servant and stay in your office, it just doesn't work that way. And so the trips that I went on, I think the two that had the most impact to me was one of the times when I went to Texas and I was down in the Gulf region, and I could not believe that human beings could live that close to oil and gas industries. I mean massive tanks, massive tanks, people's homes would be within 20 feet of the big chain link fences as if that's a protection, it's protection for the companies, it does nothing for the communities that live there.

0:13:48.0 GM: And I did public meetings there, and really some of them were heartbreaking, just absolutely heartbreaking about the health challenges that they were experiencing and how incredibly difficult it was to actually get at these root causes of problems and get the regulatory system to be able to really do its job, it's rulemaking job, that was hugely eye-opening for me because we had been pushing for so long that I thought we had made more progress than this. And I'm looking at it going, "How do we let these pockets of poverty?" Because we know that these health impacts are relationally aligned with the income distribution, the poverty challenges that we're seeing, the social challenges, racial challenges, these are all bunched together and have to be fought and understood as one. And the other one was going to Louisiana, man if you've ever not been to Louisiana, you have to go there because the whole corridor of industries, mostly plastics industries, all fossil fuel based is still there, they're still humming, and I'm still seething about the inability to be able to tackle these problems effectively. So, as you can tell I might have left the job, but I take the job with me and while I'm focused more on climate, I refuse always to disconnect that from public health, it's just inseparable.

0:15:25.1 DB: I want to actually shift gears a little bit. During your career, you've worked for both Republican and Democratic administrations, and it's no secret that American politics especially as of late has been very divided, and it can be hard to reach across the aisle to get things done. And as we focus on training future public health leaders, it's so important for us to be able to train our students to work effectively across lines of difference. And if you can just maybe reflect and comment on how you've been able to work across differences in partisan political environments.

0:16:03.0 GM: Yeah, I've worked for six governors, five of them were Republicans and I'm a staunch Democrat. But that didn't mean I couldn't effectively get stuff done [laughter] because you have to follow the science and be clear. I think communication is everything, you have to see what you can do and what's the best you can do and keep moving it forward knowing that if you don't do it, it won't get done. I worked in Massachusetts and in Connecticut and frankly, it's a lot different in other states clearly. But I think we were able to make real progress, and I did it because I reached out to constituency groups. We had people in all the NGOs working for us, or with us I should say, to get people involved and engaged because at the state level that's essential because that's how change happens.

0:17:08.7 GM: And so we worked with them and I worked across the aisle every chance I got. I didn't win every time but when I won, I won big, because you have to keep moving forward. But at the federal level, it's even more difficult. I worked for two presidents: Biden, and prior to that President Obama, they were both Democrats, but that didn't really help with the difficulty we had in Congress between Republicans and Democrats, but it was frankly a lot better than it is today. But I did everything humanly possible to establish a personal relationship with the Republican colleagues even when they didn't agree with me. I would literally have them come up before a meeting and say, "I'm really going to pound you." I'd go, "Go for it, I'm ready." You know what I mean, I'm not suggesting it was a game, but I am suggesting that neither of us left there without a shaking of your hand, a recognition that we were both doing our jobs. And I did my best, and I think in many cases, soften the blow for some of the rules that went through because you spent time with people and you have to, it's a personal as well as a business relationship that you need to have, and that's how human beings can get to get over obstacles that otherwise would've prevented them from working together.

0:18:39.3 DB: Absolutely. And as you're responding, just kind of thinking about the complexity of the problems that you're working on that are not Democratic problems, they're not Republican problems, they are problems that we have to solve together and your response really shares the foundations of what it takes effectively to be able to work across political lines of difference.

0:19:03.1 GM: I mean, none of us are wearing a big scarlet letter that's an R or D. If you go into it with that attitude, it's first of all disrespectful, but it's also counterproductive. [laughter] If you want to win, there were many times when I think some of the Republicans felt they had to vote against something, but they had talked to me afterwards and I'd recognized that they kind of liked it, and it was the same with our industry players, you had to be reasonable, you had to figure out what they could actually do without putting them out of business, you had to get that sweet spot for how can you calculate the health benefits and maximize them, but at the same time actually get this done, and you had to work with outside groups.

0:19:53.8 GM: I had a lot of outside groups that really helped us to get over the finish line by doing their own lobbying, but also just by going out. We started a whole moms group called Moms Clean Air Force, and that's all they did was go around the country and talk to people about why we needed cleaner air and how to get there. And all those things were precious opportunities for me to realize that we cannot be without hope, because individuals out there, families need it and they're willing to jump in. Public service has been just an amazing gift for me.

0:20:34.0 DB: The work that you do has the good fortune of sitting on an evidence base. One of the challenges now is that there's so many sources of information, including sources of misinformation and disinformation, and this affects many topics in public health. And as I think about an issue like climate change, certainly present there. And so just wonder if you can kind of comment on that factor in the work that you do of how you've effectively worked with people or help to support and serve people who may not acknowledge, believe, or even recognize the impacts of climate change.

0:21:11.8 GM: I've tried to figure out how to distinguish the difference between science and belief systems. [laughter] It's a bit frustrating when people come in already having chosen their position on the basis of listening to the information that's incorrect. It's hard but again, it's about recognizing that people are not perfect, people are people, and we make science very complex often for people. Now when we do rulemaking, it was essential to go into the complexities and make the arguments you needed to make and defend what you were trying to do, but in human terms, we talk in language that people don't understand, many people. And we also, they rely on information that's not right, we're seeing that right now as the misinformation is just incredible. I think that's going to continue and in fact get a lot more difficult as AI continues to sort of expand in a way they're expanding right now, and in a way that's unregulated.

0:22:27.5 GM: There's nobody who's the referee here that can cry foul, you can say anything you want. I think the important thing from a public health perspective is that you have to do your job on the basis of science, but you also have to translate that science in human terms. The reason why I think I've been successful in getting some difficult things done is I always focused on what it meant for human beings, and our natural resources that we relied on. You have to put it in clear terms, you won't win everybody, there are people that will still disagree or think you've done the work wrong or intentionally wrong at times, but you have to do it, nothing is easy that's really, really good to do. [laughter]

0:23:21.2 DB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's great insight for our listeners, I think specifically even about our listeners who are still on their education journey, our students. I think there are a lot of lessons to be drawn for us as a scientific community on how we translate perhaps methods of dissemination in the past will no longer be as effective as they once were and it's our responsibility to figure out the adjustments to make to affect those communities that we intend to support.

0:23:54.4 GM: I think the challenge on climate is probably the most extreme challenge that you're going to have in terms of a communication strategy. And honestly, if we just end at talking about greenhouse gas emissions, we are definitely going to lose. [laughter] We have to talk about public health, we have to talk about air pollution, we have to talk about whether we're going to have enough water to drink and will it be clean. All of these things have to be put in human terms because some people see it as being fake, other people see it as being too expensive for them, it's going to get really hard. And I think with the technologies and practices and programs we have now, it's very clear that none of that is true, the shift to clean energy is the most cost-effective shift that we can make for our economy and for our families and for their pocketbooks, I think communication is just essential. And I talk to scientists all the time about that, they spend a great deal of time talking in language that people really do not understand, but they're trying hard now to figure out how to learn those lessons and to make it in language that people will begin to relate to and then can make their own judgment.

0:25:20.7 DB: I want to talk a bit now about how different sectors can work together to advance some of these issues pertaining to the environment and climate. And when it comes to climate change and environmental justice public health as we alluded to earlier, sometimes is a part of the conversation, sometimes less so. And talking across sectors I want to start with academic public health, what can academic public health contribute to advancing solutions in this area? And how can public health scholars best work with policy makers on climate and health issues? 

0:25:57.5 GM: I could be wrong, but I think this is happening a lot, I think there's a lot of communication going on between the public health community and the advocacy community, and as you described them scholars. But I think they're not interchangeable, it's about partnership, it's about collaboration, who has the skills to do what, how do you work together to make change happen and to make people understand the benefits of that change. I think that a lot of, I know that a lot of the ways in which people started to talk about climate change was to make it as scary as it possibly could be, that was not a wise choice. But at that point in time, there weren't many solutions to it. But when there is, it just opens up a world of opportunity to actually get people excited and engaged rather than fearful.

0:27:00.0 GM: And I think that goes for anybody that's working in the public health field, is they have to work in areas where they can translate the challenge into that opportunity framing and make it clear, instead of trying to sort of continually look closer and closer at the number of deaths, nobody relates to that, it's sad, but it's true. But they care about what their family's doing and their communities, and I'm not saying that because I feel people are weak are wanting, I think it's just human nature. That's all that we tend to fight about, is how do you communicate with people to engage them in a positive way. And that's true of every aspect of health, every aspect, it's the frustration of my life that we haven't been better at getting an air quality. I can't understand it.

0:28:03.5 GM: We're finally getting air monitors in Africa, can you believe it? Seriously? This is what we're doing right now, I just can't get over it. And when you do that, if you start measuring things and making that measurement visible, people sit up and go, "Huh, compared to what?" And so we have to be bold about getting information out in a public way, but we have to make sure to translate that into something they can grab a hold of.

0:28:39.5 DB: Absolutely, absolutely. And if I think about government as a sector, either at a state level or a federal level, how have you seen environmental agencies and public health agencies work together on climate and environmental issues? 

0:28:57.1 GM: That's a really good question because at times the relationship has not been very tight. But I think that's not true now, at least the states that I've been engaging with and many I know, are really looking at the opportunity to look more holistically at these challenges and in a collaborative way. And so I'm kind of excited about the partnerships that are increasing in terms of wanting to make sure that we take a multi-discipline approach to these issues. I just think it's essential.

0:29:30.6 DB: Lastly, I'll point to the private sector. Clearly a huge contributor on the one hand to issues around climate change, but also solutions around climate change, and so we need to work with them to be able to pursue and advance some of these solutions. And so, what are some of the most effective ways that you found to engage with the private sector in this work? 

0:29:51.4 GM: Yeah, I mean the federal government is important, but to me change in all cases starts at the bottom up. [laughter] I loved working in local communities, loved it. And then you go to the state level and that's fabulous too, then you can go to the federal level if you want. But every part of that means that you have to have a skillset that is broader than your expertise, and that is your ability to work together to develop a multi strategy, that you can get your arms around and work forward on. Right now, I know that there's lots of concern that we're not gonna have any federal work on climate, which is probably true for a while, but what I know is that because cities and states have to pay attention to their population that they start activating.

0:30:54.5 GM: And I saw at the last Trump administration, we hardly lost anything, we so quickly built it back when the next administration came in. And so the role of the public sector, it's actually pretty exciting today because clean energy is not just happening in the United States and in fact, they're doing very aggressive strategies in the EU, there's a lot of work going on internationally on these issues, and for the public sector, it's all about investments. Now that's an okay thing because they're the private sector, that's what they live on. But they have found opportunities to really invest in a way that is at its core, a public health investment and a climate investment, that's the work that I have been following and doing and helping with because there's so much to be done that really benefit the entire world.

0:31:53.4 GM: I've been working with the World Bank, they asked me to do some work on a report that's going to be coming out, I think within the next couple of months, they're very slow by the way. Within the next couple of months on climate and public health and it's basically air pollution. And it's going to be really eye-opening. It's been a great experience for me to see how they get data from a variety of countries and how they extrapolate that into some meaningful statements and opportunities to move forward. And then the private sector, the two things I had with the private sector is one, they have to make money—I get it, that's what they live for. When I did rulemaking, I sat down with everyone who ran the largest utilities, I went to them if they didn't come to me. I talked to them all the time when they had a good thing to say about something, maybe we were going too far, blah, blah, blah, I'd take a look at it, we'd make changes.

0:32:55.6 GM: Now, it's not that you negotiated something <inaudible>, we negotiated something they could live with, that's what you tried to do. And I think in terms of investment, it's the same thing, how do you make investment opportunities in the global south, that can actually provide meaningful, sustainable development? And that's some of the work that I'm doing now, which relates to regenerative farming and women farmers and other efforts underway now that should provide at least some opportunity for change to begin to happen in investments to begin to flow.

0:33:37.6 DB: I hope your work that you're describing in your career to date and as it continues, really serves as a model for some of our students who will soon be at a point where they're making choices about which direction to go in in their careers. But your work really reflects the necessity and the opportunities to work across some of those sectors and really, to do so in ways where you also understand the perspectives of partners in order to be able to work effectively.

0:34:01.0 GM: Yeah, it's essential. I started out by saying I never really knew what I wanted to do, and I did that on purpose, I do it a lot. Because I feel like students often pick a career path before they have really figured out that it was what they would fall in love with. [laughter] And I think people need to take a deep breath, they need to look at a variety of different opportunities that they might have to really dig deep into health issues and consequences and solutions and opportunities. I tried things that I didn't know if I could do, because I just didn't know, I don't know if I can do that, you have to stretch. The minute you're comfortable to me, you might as well go do something else, you know what I mean? You've got to grab for the challenges.

0:34:58.4 GM: And I can't tell you how many times I went through discussions about jobs with people when I knew absolutely nothing about what I was talking about. In my younger years, as soon as I got my first job in Canton, I had to go buy books on what the hell do they do? What does a job like this do? I had to go out and get some certificates to be able to do, it's been a blast. So, I just don't want people to program their lives, I want students to know that they have large opportunities to continue to grow in many different ways. Probably you should tell the truth at job interviews, that's always a good thing. I didn't lie, I just didn't completely tell the truth.

[laughter]

0:35:50.1 DB: So, we're at January 16th, a few days away from the presidential inauguration, and there's been a lot of talk about how the incoming administration will handle climate issues and how it might shape environmental policy at the federal level. And from your experience, if you can just kind of talk to our audience about what ways each new administration gets to actually shape what happens let's say, at the EPA and then what it takes to get things done.

0:36:18.6 GM: The federal government is, as everybody knows, pretty big, and even at EPA when I was there, it was like 15,000, it's quite a bit more than that because of money that they've received to expand their opportunities there. The federal government is filled with incredibly honorable, smart, and clever people. As we saw during the prior Trump administration, they rolled back some rulemakings that they didn't like and they figured out how to do that, but very little beyond that. It is very hard at the federal level for you to change a final rulemaking as long as within the period of time when Congress can't arbitrarily change that, which is a pretty small window. So I think Congress is looking at opportunities to roll back things, but I think they're going to find it hard. But the best thing about the federal government employees is that they're not just smart, but they're very loyal to their jobs.

0:37:17.7 GM: They went there to do their jobs, not to mess it up, and we didn't lose too many people last time because they didn't want to leave. And while they may have had challenges with changes in their job or other things, but it was undone as quickly as the next change in administration. But having said that, it's so hard to predict what this administration is going to do. I think you and I know that they're bringing in outside people to come in to dismantle the federal government, which they call nasty names of, I'm hoping that it's a lot of talk and that the folks in the federal government continue to what I call, keep their butts in their seats.

0:38:04.3 DB: Yeah, and for those who may be feeling angst about the direction of environmental policy over the next four years and beyond, what are some of the ways that members of the audience can channel their energy over this time period. People who are feeling the urge to act, and the urge to act now? 

0:38:18.0 GM: I think your best bet is to see if you can do some work in your local communities, some work in your cities, some work in the states. There's always a need for people willing to jump in who have a science background or a health background because health impacts everything, and science is the core in which everybody at least should make decisions. And so, I would encourage people not to discredit how exciting it actually is to work at the community level, and at the city and state level. We are going to have governors like crazy fighting to make sure that we maintain the Inflation Reduction Act, which has given them so many billions of dollars across the country, and I think they're going to want to hear from people and they're going to want support on how to translate, what they're doing into language that everybody will get excited about and want to expand.

0:39:20.9 GM: It will be difficult at the federal level, but I don't see the same challenges at the state level. My mother had this old saying: don't cut off your nose to spite your face. That's what I'm telling the Republicans in the districts in which they've received millions of dollars and lots and lots of projects are going. I think it's a very good thing to remind them that these are their constituents, this is who they work for. So, I'm pretty comfortable that those issues will arise. There's so much you can do with a public health degree, you know that. Public health means one thing to one person and another to another, but it's always fundamental to decision making always.

0:40:07.1 DB: Absolutely. So, I want to talk about some of your current activity. So recently you've taken on a position as managing co-chair of the America Is All In coalition, and this is the most expansive coalition of leaders ever assembled to support climate action in the United States. They come from thousands of cities and states, tribal nations, businesses, schools, etcetera. Can you tell us more about the goals of the coalition and why you decided to join? 

0:40:38.6 GM: I decided to join America Is All In mainly because when I was at one of the <inaudible> in Egypt a few years ago, that was when the Trump administration wasn't doing much. He had dropped out of the Paris agreement and Mike Bloomberg gratefully said, I'll put up lots of money, let's go give the US presence internationally, and he did that, and I helped with that. And so I started then an ongoing relationship with America Is All In In that I reengaged in after the White House. And really it's all about working at the local state levels to get people engaged and excited about acting on climate. We bring together a lot of players, we go across the country, we help with things like giving cities access to how you get the inflation reduction act money, we'd give sort of remarks, we go to colleges, we go to universities, we just get out on the road and explain the opportunities that we all have available today to actually make a change tomorrow. [laughter]

0:41:53.1 GM: And so it's really fun and interesting. And part of it is working with folks like Governor Inslee in Washington and I worked with Lisa Jackson, who's at Google. Governor Pritzker soon will be joining, and the governor in California. It's so much fun actually to talk to them and see how engaged they are, but it's even more fun to talk to mayors for me. [laughter] There are literally hundreds of mayors that have joined this coalition. They're trying to learn what they can do with their communities to protect people, to actually build in a way that is sustainable, to look at what does adaptation really mean? How do I build for the future and how do I engage people in my community to act and to get out there. I love that work, it is the best because mayors collaborate with one another, they share information on how they got things done. What were the problems? 

0:43:01.2 GM: How does the rest of us avoid those challenges? So, just bringing people together is amazing. We've got Mayor Bibb who is really an outstanding young man, and he is so articulate and passionate about what he's going to do with his city, and we've got tribal leaders and tribal nations that see firsthand the devastation of climate and frankly, it probably hurts their heart more than it does mine, it's such a preventable problem and it's so devastating for them. And we work with them to try to figure out how do we keep ourselves going? How do we work together? How do we learn from one another? How do we share our experiences and our expertise? And we'll do that again and frankly, as I said before, that's where change happens. And all-of-a-sudden everybody wants to do the same thing, and it's great. I wish that I thought the next administration wasn't doing what they say they're doing, we've got to be prepared for it and we've still got to move, and that's what it's all about.

0:44:07.7 DB: Absolutely. So, I want to ask a question that, may be no surprise given that it's one that rings close to home and I want to thank members of the audience who submitted questions at the time of registration. And some variation of this question is one that I got a lot during registration, and that is really focusing on the Great Lakes. Of course, here in Michigan, we're surrounded by the Great Lakes, which contain one fifth of the world's fresh surface water supply, and I just want to probe your thinking about things that we can do here in Michigan to protect this vital resource.

0:44:43.3 GM: That's a really good question, I've worked with a couple of people who are commissioners that oversee a lot of the work on the lake in terms of maintaining its vibrancy, but doing that in a way that looks to be protective of the natural resources that border the lake, and I think it remains a significant challenge. There remain challenges with how to handle sewage effluent, there's challenges with how to keep the canals free of pollution, it's always going to be a challenge, but it is an incredibly beautiful place.

0:45:22.7 DB: Absolutely. So, we have time for one last question, and I want to really return to thinking about our students. What advice would you give to our students who are taking their first steps in their careers as future public health leaders? 

0:45:37.2 GM: I guess I would ask them to be open to not define their path as clearly as some of them might think they have to. For me, it was all about knowing that it was an issue that would always be one that followed me no matter what I did. Public health to me is it, that was always the thing that I cared about and thought about the most. When I went to Tufts, I went to the environmental health engineering program because I was driving them crazy about why more wasn't happening to protect public health. So, you can go at it at very different angles, but don't chart your path so clearly and decisively that you miss opportunities that are right in front of your nose. Because I think it allows more vibrancy and excitement in your life.

0:46:31.5 GM: I never wanted to be in the same job for a whole long time because I felt like it would stifle me to some extent. And don't be afraid that whatever your degree is, that it doesn't exactly fit a job that might be open, it's all about what you do when you get there and start talking to people about it and how excited you can be about bringing in some new ideas and new perspectives. That's how things should work. And so, for me it did, and I would encourage students to equally be bold, go out there, get lots of different ideas of what you can do for a living.

0:47:11.2 DB: Absolutely, absolutely. So we're just about out of time now for Ahead of the Curve, and I'd like to thank you Gina, for taking time to be here with us today and for sharing some really great insights about your leadership and your career, there are so many lessons embedded for all of us but again, thinking about our students, just you as a model of how you've continued to grow, how you stretch at times and have benefited from that throughout your career. Such a fantastic conversation, we're thankful to have you here. Thanks to all of you for joining us here in Ann Arbor on a snowy winter day. Be well, stay safe and forever: go blue.

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0:47:56.9 Host: Thanks for listening to this episode of Population Healthy from the University of Michigan School of Public Health. We're glad you decided to join us and hope you learn something, that will help you improve your own health or make the world a healthier place. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe or follow this podcast on iTunes, apple podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Be sure to follow us at, UMICHSPH on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook so you can share your perspectives on the issues we discuss, learn more from Michigan public health experts and share episodes of the podcast with your friends on social media. You're invited to subscribe to our weekly newsletter, to get the latest research, news and analysis from the University of Michigan School of Public Health. Visit public publichealth.umich.edu/news/newsletter to sign up. You can also check out the show notes on our website, Population-healthy.com for more resources on the topics discussed in this episode. We hope you can join us for our next edition, where we'll dig in further to public health topics that affect all of us at a population level.